Colisa and Trichogaster

[Simplex]

Ok, after learnt about cave fish article in TFH October issue, I finally managed to get one. The cave fish article is very interesting but a small article about Colisa lalia is even more interesting.

Here is the question, which I hope I posted in the right forum.

Many years ago, I learnt of a fish name Colisa chuna, the huney gouramie which I really like. Then ealier this year somebody told me that the name of this fish has been changed to Colisa sota, because the author -can't remember who probably Day- described the male and female as separate species as in C. sota and chuna, so we should stick with sota, I don't know why. Anyway, I used C. sota now. Then in this article, the author said the fish is now Trichogaster chuna????!!!! Can anyone point me to where I can get the paper about this revision of Colisa and Trichogaster thing? And what is the deal with sota and chuna?

[Stuporman]

I think the references you want are:

Derijst, E, 1997. Nota over de geldigheid van de genusnamen: Trichogaster Bloch & Schneider, 1801; Trichopodus Lacepède, 1801; Polyacanthus Cuvier, 1829 en Colisa Cuvier, 1831 (Perciformes: Belontiidae); met commentaar over de publicatiedata van de werken van Bloch & Schneider en van Lacepède.... Aquarium Wereld, 50: 217-236.

Paepke, H-J, 1997. Colisa chuna oder Colisa sota - zur wissenschaftlichen Namensgebung beim Honiggurami (Teleostei: Acanthopterygii: Perciformes: Belontiidae). Zoologische Abhandlungen, Staatliche Museum für Tierkunde Dresden, 49: 185-192.

[stormhawk]

Nonn, I also saw someone label his pictures of C. chuna as Trichogaster chuna. Very confusing indeed.

HH, so what is the status now? I have no access to all these articles so a simple explanation would help. :scratch:

[Stuporman]

Dunno leh. I never bothered to look for the articles, let alone read them. Ralf Britz says they are distinct, so that is good enough for me.

[stormhawk]

Then I'll take it that these buggers are still Colisa. :p Thanks for the comments HH. :thumbsup:

[hwchoy]

Ralf Britz says they are distinct, so that is good enough for me.

sorry, which "they" are distinct? :dunnoe:

[hwchoy]

FB lists Colisa as containing only a single species lalia while chuna/sota is in Trichogaster, and fasciatus under Polyacanthus. Are they really so distinct that we have single species each in Colisa and Polyacanthus!? :dunnoe:

[Stuporman]

sorry, which "they" are distinct? :dunnoe:

Colisa and Trichogaster.

In Britz, R, 2001. The genus Betta -- monophyly and intrarelationships, with remarks on the subfamilies Macropodinae and Luciocephalinae (Teleostei: Osphronemidae). Ichthyological Exploration of Freshwaters 12: 305-318.

[hwchoy]

ah ok. but poor Colisa now left with just lalia :(

[Simplex]

Wah! even more confusing....why can't they just stick with the good old Colisa, Trichogaster and Botia and all that? Now I have to remember everything again.

So...Trichogaster chuna or sota? They don't look like Trichogaster to me...anyway.... Maybe I will have to email Mr. Kullander and Mr. Britz.

[hwchoy]

according to FB, it is T. chuna.

[Simplex]

:stab: There is nothing to do with those two....

Mr. BD, those paper in German, right? :(

[Stuporman]

Derijst (1997) is in Dutch, Paepke (1997) is in German.

[Stuporman]

Here is the illustration accompanying the original description of C. chuna:

[Stuporman]

And here is C. sota.

As you can see, C. sota is the male and C. chuna is the female of the same species.

[hwchoy]

so only the female has a blue/dark under-chin and abdomen?

[Simplex]

Choy, only the male have the black marking at the chin and the belly, the female have that black verticle line across her body.

It is clearly a male and female of the honey guaramy. In this case what do we do? Stick with the name that appear in the book first or stick with the male name or what?

[Stuporman]

I think the name used for the male (C. sota) has become the valid one.

[hwchoy]

Choy, only the male have the black marking at the chin and the belly, the female have that black verticle line across her body.

It is clearly a male and female of the honey guaramy. In this case what do we do? Stick with the name that appear in the book first or stick with the male name or what?

oh, sorry I got confused with HH's text with the pics.

[hwchoy]

I think the name used for the male (C. sota) has become the valid one.

does that make T. chuna a junior synonym or completely invalid? and I'm half expecting feminists to stage a protest against the adoption of the male name. :D

[Stuporman]

Since they are not based on the same specimen, T. chuna is a junior subjective synonym.
In many organisms with clear sexual dimorphism, the male is usually selected as the holotype, since they usually have very clear distinguishing features (e.g. aedeagi of insects) compared to females.

[Simplex]

The Labyrinth Journal by Anabatoid Association of Great Britain arrived at my home today. In the journal there is an article by Ralf Britz which stated that all Colisa sp. are now Trichogaster and all the Trichogaster sp. are now Trichopodus sp. I'm getting very confuse. What do we use now?

[pulchellus]

Did the name Trichogaster predate Colisa from 1822?

[Simplex]

He said Jordan 1917 designated Trichogaster fasciatus as typespecies of Trichogaster. I guess his T. fasciatus is our Colisa fasciatus now so....that make Colisa moving to Trichogaster. Then he said that Bleeker 1879 designated Labrus trichopterus as type of the old genus Trichopodus. I guess the L. trichopterus is our Trichogaster trichopterus now, so that make Trichopodus trichopterus. Awww..confusing.

Regan (1909) also listed our Colisa as Trichogaster and our Trichogaster as Trichopodus.

[hwchoy]

so we're going back in history to the original names?

[radek_blasko]

I think the references you want are:

Derijst, E, 1997. Nota over de geldigheid van de genusnamen: Trichogaster Bloch & Schneider, 1801; Trichopodus Lacepède, 1801; Polyacanthus Cuvier, 1829 en Colisa Cuvier, 1831 (Perciformes: Belontiidae); met commentaar over de publicatiedata van de werken van Bloch & Schneider en van Lacepède.... Aquarium Wereld, 50: 217-236.

Paepke, H-J, 1997. Colisa chuna oder Colisa sota - zur wissenschaftlichen Namensgebung beim Honiggurami (Teleostei: Acanthopterygii: Perciformes: Belontiidae). Zoologische Abhandlungen, Staatliche Museum für Tierkunde Dresden, 49: 185-192.

Hello HH,
can I ask you if you have that articles in PDF availible?
I'm very interested in them.
Thank you very much, Radek
radek.blasko@centrum.cz